It looks Obvious - Latest Comments in The Immigration Issue

Re: The Immigration Issue

Rogel — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:46:19 -0000

You have a past too, and we won't require you to deny it. We can strive toward a national culture which, on the one hand, pays due respect to the national values which made this country what it is today, but which also respects difference, and does not ask immigrants to pretend that they have no roots of their own?

But I think that the differences between the two are not as much as it seems. It is more like "violent agreement" :)

Re: The Immigration Issue

Tanner — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:34:01 -0000

is one of greater inclusion for immigrants, then I'm all for it. But I still take his comments to be a good deal less tolerant than suits my tastes.

Anyway, this conversation has been a pleasure for me too.

Apparently, Timothy B. Smith agrees with me that Dalrymple's view of tolerance doesn't exactly equal his - see his recent reply in the Cato Unbound conversation thread.

Cheers,
Tanner

Re: The Immigration Issue

Rogel — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:54:05 -0000

â€œThe miserabilist view of the European past, in which achievement on a truly stupendous scale is disregarded in favor of massacre, oppression and injustice, deprives the population of any sense of pride or tradition to which it might contribute or which might be worth preserving. This loss of cultural confidence is particularly important at a time of mass immigration from very alien cultures, an immigration that can be successfully negotiated (as it has been in the past, or in the United States up to the era of multiculturalism) only if the host nations believe themselves to be the bearers of cultures into which immigrants wish, or ought to wish, to integrate, assimilate, and make their own.â€

He clearly did not suggest closing the border but something deeper than that, which I hope to as well, and that is to renew our knowledge and pride of the western culture. It isnâ€™t a criticism on the immigrants but on the host and the suggestion is to include the immigrants in the western society.

Re: The Immigration Issue

Tanner — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:43:40 -0000

or an Objectivist - politically speaking - would propose to do about it. Neither of us offers a political system that proposes to change cultural values. We would probably both say "prosecute those who use violence," and you might add "convert more people to Objectivism.â€ But I doubt that either of us would propose, â€œwhite people are better, close the borders!â€ as I get the distinct impression Dalrymple and his ilk would.

I donâ€™t want to be accusable of ignoring the recent demonstrations against Danish newspapers, and so on. As regards those demonstrations, we can at least say that in Europe, by and large, they have been peaceful.

And to put them into perspective for a moment, pick a period in the USâ€™s history when you imagine the country was most liberal. Is it immediately after the founding or perhaps right after the Civil War? Whenever it is, now that youâ€™ve thought of it, imagine that a major newspaper in the Northeast publishes a picture featuring (please pardon the illustration) Jesus Christ in a bed with the covers up to his neck and a woman beside him, similarly positioned. Frankly, this is something that offends me deeply even to type, but I think the mental exercise is an important one.

Would it be even remotely surprising if â€“ say â€“ the South (or even the Northeast itself) then erupted in protests? The almost indisputable fact is that it would have â€“ and as the result of an image that, in todayâ€™s America, would hardly cause a stir outside of Christian publications. Now, are you re-thinking your idea that the US was a mostly liberal nation during this time, or are you merely qualifying it with the thought that, â€œokay, but itâ€™s possible to be a Christian country and a liberal country at the same time.â€?

* * *

Sorry for the long comment. In conclusion, if I were to have my way, Europeans would (unlike Dalrymple) frame their comments in terms of, â€œMuslims should open their minds to the notion of a free press,â€ than â€“ as they currently seem to be saying â€“ â€œEurope must beware of Mohammedans in our midst, their culture will rot ours from the inside out!â€

The first statement would find broad support even in Muslim Europe. The second statement strikes me as thoroughly bigoted, and ill-informed.